Product Description
"In Rouse's pages, Soctrates' strength of mind, his dedication to the philosophical truth, are borne in on the modern reader with something of the power that impressed and disturbed the ancient Greeks."--Time

"There has been no adequate translation of Plato since Jowett...and I think Rouse has done it." --Dudley Fitts

* Rouse is one of the world's most respected classical scholars ... Read more

Customer Reviews (15)

Perfect for a beginner
It's probably not the best translation on the market today. But for a beginner, like myself, it's one of the best introductions to Plato, Socrates, and greek philosophy as one can get.

Plato is great, but this translation is not
There is no point in trying to detract from the works of Plato themselves; anyone who is buying a collection of his dialogues is already convinced of his preeminence in Western philosophy.

This translation, however, is honestly lousy, and it surprises me how well it seems to have been received.Though I have some training in philosophy (an undergraduate degree) I'm certainly not an ancient philosophy expert, and I found no difficulty in reading Jowett, and I imagine the average reader approaching Plato would not either.Rouse's modus operandus appears to be to make Plato "accessible"--to a fault, I think.Whatever gains are made in clarity are more than countered by the awkwardness of the text and frequent anachronisms.To illustrate, here are two quotes from the first dialogue included, Ion:

"Socrates: I'm glad to hear it, Ion, for it is clear you won't mind giving me a show.

Ion: I will most certainly. You'll find it a treat to hear, Socrates, how finely I have decked out Homer! I believe I've earned a golden crown from the Homer Association."

What Rouse awkwardly translates as "Homer Association"--which sounds like a group of middle-aged men who get together every Wednesday to bowl and drink, or something--is preserved in Jowett's text as Homeridae, a group of ancient Greek Homeric scholars.How this could be confusing, especially with a simple footnote, is beyond me.

Second:

"Ion: When someone speaks about any other poet, I can't attend. I can't put in one single remark to the point, I'm just in a doze--but only mention Homer and I'm wide awake in a jiffy . . ."

The term "jiffy" is so anachronistic and silly that it really distracts the reader from the flow of the text.I cannot possibly understand why Rouse thought this was a good word to use here.

These are just some examples.All translations of Plato that I've encountered have some anachronism--Socrates quotes Latin phrases in Jowett, for example--but there is and should be a limit, and I think it's obvious that Rouse exceeds that limit.

From Nietzsche to Plato... a modern view.
I have to say that Having started this after reading Kaufman's translation of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" I have an equal love for the treatment by W.H.D. Rouse in the dialogs.For a beginning philosophy student you can't really do any better than this excellent translation done in (fairly) modern english.(There's versions of this text dating from the 1950's here on amazon.)For the serious student it's an intelligent idea to read more than one translation because there will always be differences and omissions.I've also read his excellent prose treatments of Homer as well--I know some of you prefer the poetic versions, however it is more important that people read these works even if the form has changed.If you've tried reading other translations and the reading seems too dry or seems too structured, this version is done in plain, conversational english.

Great collection/translation but bad print quality.
The translation and collection is admirable, but the quality of this Signet paperback I received is very cheap looking. For some reason it just seems crammed and most pages seem like they are typed in bold and others normal. Sometimes there will be a diagonal bolding of a page (like a line of bold going through from top left to bottom right) to the point where an "a" will have the entire bottom filled in. Not sure if I got a bad copy, but this isn't something I've ever noticed in a book before. This also makes some of the footnotes hard to read because they are even smaller so a "w" is all filled in and looks like an upside down triangle with the tip cut off.

Good
The book was delivered fast and in excellent conditions. I recommend doing business with this member. ... Read more

Product Description
Plato (428/427 BC-348/347 BC), whose original name was Aristocles, was an ancient Greek philosopher, the second of the great trio of ancient Greeks - succeeding Socrates and preceding Aristotle - who between them laid the philosophical foundations of Western culture. Plato was also a mathematician, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens, the first institution of higher learning in the western world. Plato is widely believed to have been a student of Socrates and to have been deeply influenced by his teacher's unjust death. Plato's brilliance as a writer and thinker can be witnessed by reading his Socratic dialogues. Some of the dialogues, letters, and other works that are ascribed to him are considered spurious. Plato is thought to have lectured at the Academy, although the pedagogical function of his dialogues, if any, is not known with certainty. They have historically been used to teach philosophy, logic, rhetoric, mathematics, and other subjects about which he wrote. ... Read more

Product Description
'A model of the kind of text one needs for lecture courses: the translation is extremely readable and made even more accessible by intelligent printing decisions (on dividing the text, spacing for clarification, etc.); the notes are kept to a minimum but appear when they are really needed for comprehension and are truly informative. And the introduction admirably presents both basic information and a sense of current scholarly opinion' - S G Nugent, Princeton University. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (10)

Most of us don't believe Socrates!
Socrates demonstrates how wisdom is better than any other pursuit, including sex.Most of us moderns don't believe Socrates!

There are a number of things that a Christian could find some parallel to in the wisdom literature of Scripture, especially Proverbs and Ecclesiastes.

NEVER RECEIVED THE BOOK!!
I paid for the book and never received it--nor have I ever received any explanation why the book is missing. This is unacceptable. I am going to request a refund. Please avoid using this owner.

More about sex than love
This classic piece is about the base attractions of mankind. It was obviously written in a time when such discussion blurred the lines between morality and reality. A very interesting look into mankind at that point in history and human society development.

Plato's Symposium
it is a great book and i have read it before, but unfortunately, it has been 4 weeks and still have not received the book from Amazon.Quite frankly, I'm offended that they even asked me to review a book that they have not yet received.If it takes 4 weeks to get all my books from this site, i do not think i will be ordering any books from here in the near future.

Drinking and talking in ancient Greece
I guess that, when someone wants to buy works of Plato, one wants to know few things about translation, existence of commentaries, foreword author and all about the presence of academic apparatus behind the book. All that comes from long centuries of research, studies and endless debates about the real meaning of Platos work. Stuff like that are precisely what makes history of philosophy present in modern times. Sadly enough, I don't know anything about that. At least not for this edition in particular. But, as you might have guessed there are enough Plato scholars out there, and chances that you'll stumble upon bad translation are minimal. That, of course, depends upon your level of interest.

If you're somewhat advanced student of philosophy, commentaries and translation should interest you, but then again you wouldn't want to be reading review on Amazon about Plato's work in general. One is precisely aware that couple hundred words cannot begin to encompass complexness and richness of this man and his works. So I'll be writing just a few lines for absolute beginners, those that will stumble upon these pages and shall require some information that is not in line of who said what, and what was the reply.

Symposium (or Feast - in a more of a lose way of translation) is one of the major works of Plato, and as it tends to be with his works, one of the works that layed foundation for entire history of Western thought. In a way, it's a romantic tractate, filled with zeal towards the beauty, the passion for philosophy as a search for truth. It is a romantic text written more than two thousand years before romanticism. And, as all romantic texts of great importance do, this one also puts forward the positive idea - one of those that produced the concept of 'humanity', one of those that will for ever be debated and interpreted and whose 'truth' will always be a mistery. It is not religious text in any way - as far as it goes, it is very precise piece of work - somewhat more mistical and allusive than works of Aristotel - but in an inspirational sort of way, it goes far above any of Aristotels works.

It's main interest lies in a process of defining what love is. Of course, for Greeks of those age, love doesn't come with all the baggage of myths of moderne - it is more a question of what Eros is - is it a God, a power, a demon is it good in any way. In a way it's a quest for identity, 'cause, following the argumentation in the book, to search for an answer for what Eros is one should already be possessed with it.

In Symposium Plato is, as always, an idealist, and that is saying that debate in Symposium doesn't draw out from all of the possible angles. It's more of a scatchbook than anything else. But, those scatches speak to all of the blue-eyed idealist out there, they are establishing connection of interest over twenty centuries long, and it is showing that humans are capabale of doing truly wondrous stuff. It's not a feel-good literature if for a second you thought it is, but upon reading it good feeling emerges. Together with call to continue on debating. And for the beggining, that is all what we need. ... Read more

Product Description
The central work of one of the West's greatestphilosophers, The Republic of Plato is a masterpiece ofinsight and feeling, the finest of the Socraticdialogues, and one of the great books of Westernculture. This new translation captures the dramaticrealism, poetic beauty, intellectual vitality, andemotional power of Plato at the height of his powers.Deftly weaving three main strands of argument into anartistic whole--the ethical and political, the aestheticand mystical, and the metaphysical--Plato explores inThe Republic the elements of the ideal community, where morality can be achieved in a balance of wisdom,courage, and restraint. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (4)

An Admirable Achievement in Clarity and Directness

Among all the translators of Plato's Republic who claim that their translations are intended to be readable, Robin Waterfield seems to be the only one to have truly fulfilled the pledge. His translation has demonstrated a simple belief that Plato meant for his Greek to be as readable and fluent as in an everyday conversation and that is exactly what Mr. Waterfield is doing with his modern English --- without assuming that there is a built-in difficulty in all the classic literatures. Because, he believes, "reading Plato should be easy; understanding Plato can be difficult." A rare combination of the knowledge of classic philosophy and the writing of children's fiction to his credit must have contributed to the admirable achievement of clarity and directness.

In addition to readability, Waterfield has also made a unique contribution by abandoning the traditional "ten books" design (which was not made by Plato himself anyway) and regrouped them into "fourteen chapters" following the natural flow of the internal arguments in the texts. It is therefore only too logical for him to give each of his fourteen chapters a title and a brief introduction, not only for convenience but also to provide an overall scope of the book, which is in fact the longest and most complicated of all Plato's dialogues. Of course, he has no need to give up the standard means of reference to passages in Plato and the reader still feels quite at home with the conventional setting started as early as in 1578. To an avid reader, this new translation in Oxford World's Classics is an invaluable addition to his existing collection, large or small.

One more point deserves our special admiration. While most translators think Republic is about justice in the sense of politics more or less, Waterfield alone chooses morality for the Greek word dikaiosone, which refers to something larger than justice and that "encompasses all the various virtues and is almost synonymous with virtue in general" (Aristotle Ethics). This intrinsic quality of justice does not, however, show up to give him support until in the last two Books (IX and X), or Chapters 12-14 in our case, where the issues of happiness, or unhappiness, and immortality of the soul are brought up. At this point Waterfield needs waste no time to prove that the book title Republic is rather inadequate, if not a misnomer, for being taken directly from the Greek word politeia, which means the public life of a community and has little or no apparent relationship to the idea of republicanism as we understand it today.

Good translation makes the difference
I never understood the Republic until I read this translation....there are great notes that go with the text, and the result is you really learn something.

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

Good Teaching Translation
I've been using the Oxford World's Classics edition of Republic for three years now to teach freshmen, and Waterfield's translation and endnotes are great.His choice to render dikaiosyne as "morality" rather than "justice" allows a range of discussion with American students that travels outside the courtroom and into the purpose of life and what translation means, and his crankiness in the endnotes (he talks about Plato as an old lover talks about his beloved) allows some great lessons about editorial practices and what's involved in the production of a scholarly edition.

Perhaps more important to my students than anything, this edition of Plato is right at ten bucks, a steal compared to their other textbooks and an invitation to mark up, use, and abuse the margins.I'm sitting at my desk, my battered copy of the 1998 printing sitting next to my keyboard, and I'm thinking that perhaps this fall I'll pick up a copy of this blue-sky beauty. ... Read more

Product Description
Translated with an Introduction and Notes by Christopher Gill. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

Love love love
I'm not a philosophy or ancient history student, I picked up Plato's "Symposium" to challenge myself and see if I could understand it. The "Symposium" is a gathering of Greek thinkers who sit around and give speeches about love.

Phaedrus talks about the greatness of love and how those who have it achieve great things. Pausanias talks of the merits of boy/man love where the boy pleasures the man while the man passes on his wisdom to the boy and that this is the best kind of love, not the lesser lover of procreation between man and woman. Eryximachus talks about how love is the source of all happiness. Aristophanes talks about how once upon a time there was no man or woman but a single human who had both sexes' characteristics. These creatures tried to scale the heavens and so Zeus cut them in half and ever since then man and woman have sought to create that single creature again. Socrates talks about his teacher Diotima and how she taught him that love was the only way human beings could be immortal.

"The Symposium" is a short read not to be rushed as there are some fascinating ideas here. Not new ones though but ones that have influenced western culture and thought for centuries. Aristophanes' and Diotima's especially are ideas I've come across before but didn't know they originated in this text. It's also very pro-pederasty which I thought was amusing and can see why some people might have thought Plato was a closet homosexual. Those Greeks certainly were liberated though.

It's an accesible and interesting little book though this Penguin Great Ideas edition features no notes, contextual history, introduction, glossary, reading list, etc which the Penguin Classics edition does so if you're studying this text I'd get that edition rather than this one.

Classic Plato
A great little book. It's a great translation and there's a lot of supplemental material here to help the reader understand the text a bit more, which is always helpful. Although as another reviewer noted, it can be hard to tell just who is speaking at any given moment. But that seems to be a common trend with all translations of Plato. All in all it's a great edition to own and great material to read.

Very important, but wrong
All philosophy, yesterday's and today's, is a battle between the two ancient Greeks, Plato and his student Aristotle. Thus, people who wants to understand the world, needs to know what each of these sages is saying, what the different premises of the two men are, and what are the ramifications of what they are saying.

This is no exaggeration. Take religion as an example. Plato's approach to life affected the way the general population understand religion, while Aristotle offered the intellectuals a realistic rational view of religion. What is the difference between them?

Plato had an otherworldly non-naturalistic idea of the world. How can people define anything, how can they relate to it? There is, Plato answered, an ideal that exists outside this world. Plato never said where this ideal is located - in the mind or in heaven or floating around in the upper atmosphere. An object, he claimed, is defined by how much it is like the ideal. Thus, for example, there is an ideal table and the table on earth can be called a table if and only if it is like the ideal table.

Take love as an example. Plato's Symposium describes a drinking party where Socrates and his acquaintances try to define love. Plato is a masterful writer, and the dialogue is filled with very entertaining dissimilar ideas. However, Socrates, Plato's hero and teacher, states that true love is love that is like the ideal of love.

This is clever, but it is not informative. It seems like a joke. But it isn't a joke. People lived according to Plato's worldview and abandoned thinking during the medieval dark ages until the renaissance when individuals, at least the more educated, began to rethink and reaccept the ideas of Aristotle. Of course, even during the dark ages there were some scholars who lived as Aristotle taught, but only a handful of people.

Plato's notion of the otherworldly unnatural ideal affected many religions. People, said the clerics, must organize their lives according to ideals that are in heaven. People, they said must not think about religion on their own. Why should they think? There is only one way to think and act, and it is the ideal that is in heaven.

Aristotle had a radically different rational and natural view. He encouraged people to think. They must examine nature, experiment with it and discover the truth. A good table has nothing to do with heaven; it is an object that serves people best to eat on, work on, put objects on, etc. Love is not what matches a heavenly ideal; it is a human relationship built on respect and trust, on ability to work with another for mutual benefits.

So, too, with religion. One can if one wants believe in a divine revelation. However the revelation continues and grows as humans grow. The revelation occurs here on earth; it is not an ideal in heaven. Teachings are revealed in the events of history and in scientific experiments and advances.

Thus, Plato's views are significant, for they are the past and they are the present that should be avoided. People need to enter the world bravely, open-mindedly, think, act and grow.

A wonderful read
We read this in my European Art as Politics class and it was very interesting. There is a lot of depth involved. Recommended.

Fascinating ancient treatise on the nature of Love
I've read quite a few pieces of ancient Roman & Greek literature and each time I come away greatly surprised at how these 2000 to 3000-year old cultures were so similar to ours in many ways.Well, Plato's somewhat short dialogue "The Symposium" both re-affirms and counters these past impressions.

"The Symposium" investigates the nature of romantic Love.What is it?From where does it arise?What is the aim of Love?What does it accomplish?

On the one hand, this dialogue asks questions that people today still can't really answer.Modern readers should be able to relate very well to these aspects of the dialogue.It should be noted that most of the viewpoints and opinions presented through several speeches in the dialogue make some sort of sense, but only when Love is thought of as a sentient being that can influence a person's thoughts and actions.Most of us today have been schooled in science and don't perceive Love as a separate entity but rather as a mental condition springing from somewhere in the brain.But overall, the speeches are easy to relate to in the sense of scrutinizing the fundamental nature of Love.

However, where "The Symposium" evinces stark differences with modern culture is with respect to homo-eroticism.So many references are made to homosexuality (including one embarassingly revealing anecdote by Alcibiades about his lover Socrates) that if we consider Plato's work to be representative of the time, then we have to believe that many, if not most, highly educated men in ancient Athens were essentially homosexuals whose relations with their wives were limited to providing for them and fathering children by them.The most convincing support for this is in Aristophanes' and Alcibiades' speeches.

The Penguin edition consists of a superb translation by Christopher Gill.The finale to Agathon's eulogy on Love immediately struck me as remarkable and incredibly well worded, so much so that I had to read it again to admire the use of language.And then imagine my astonishment when a couple paragraphs later Socrates says about Agathon's speech: "The rest was not quite so amazing, but who could fail to be struck by the beauty of language and phrasing at the end?"Clearly, Gill nailed the translation of that passage, and I believe in general too.

A must read for fans of classics!It's short too, well under 100 pages. ... Read more

Product Description
All the writings of Plato generally considered to be authentic are here presented in the only complete one-volume Plato available in English. The editors set out to choose the contents of this collected edition from the work of the best British and American translators of the last 100 years, ranging from Jowett (1871) to scholars of the present day. The volume contains prefatory notes to each dialogue, by Edith Hamilton; an introductory essay on Plato's philosophy and writings, by Huntington Cairns; and a comprehensive index which seeks, by means of cross references, to assist the reader with the philosophical vocabulary of the different translators. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (12)

Good and Bad
First the Good:

This collection includes a wide range of important Platonic dialogues and letters.It is by no means complete, but has enough selection of material to provide the reader a real basis for understanding Plato's thought processes as a whole.The vast majority of dialogues I have found to be of interest are found here.

Now the bad.

I found the language of the translation to be very difficult to get into.In general, a lot of these translations are not only more difficult for the modern reader but they are more difficult than other older translations of Plato's works that I have read. I found it rather difficult to get through this work.

On the whole, I would give the selection 5 stars, and the translation 2 stars.However on the whole, I would give the work a mediocre 3 stars.It may be helpful to fill in some gaps in one's library, but I wouldn't recommend it as a primary Plato text.

PLATO WAS AN UNPARALLELED GENIUS OF THE GREATEST MIND EVER DEVELOPED BY WESTERN CIVILIZATION
The famed British philosopher and mathematician Alfred North Whitehead was a tremendous admirer of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato's cosmically comprehensive thought and great literary writing talent. For the past thirty five years I have immersed myself as an amateur Plato scholar.
Plato is not only vastly deep and abstract but also commonplace and concrete. Alfred North Whitehead stated that he believed "Plato's thought was analogous to a prism whereas various lights reflect different views and hues" and that "there is hardly a thought or insight Plato did not have" and that "Plato more than any one else had a supreme sense of the infinite possibilities of the universe". Whitehead felt Plato intuitively had direct insights into the cosmos. Whitehead believed that the enormousness of Plato's breadth of thought made Plato more right than anyone else in history although sometimes Plato was so very wrong. I would qualify this statement's assessmentwith the observation that the true essence of studying Plato and his student Aristotle is the incredible number of topics and ideas that they scientifically scrutinize. Some evaluators have estimated that Aristotle was fifty percent wrong about all his so-called evidentiary assertions. Perhaps so and perhaps Plato was far more wrong than his zealous worshipper Alfred North Whitehead claimedbut the gist of their thought quest is their overwhelmingly awesome amplitude of contemplativeness. Alfred North Whitehead felt that Plato was far more willing than most individuals to assert that any one of his conclusions on any subject could be wrong. This in itself could have established Plato as being a far more right thinker than most other thinkers in historical time. Whitehead asserted that "what is needed is an immense feeling for things". If you read Plato you will meet the content of your mind. I would addthat Plato was the equal of the greatest writers of all time. His writings are poetical dialogues that compress a stupendous number of ideas into as few words as possible as to how all of space and time have been constructed. While Plato has his feet planted firmly in realism he incessantly interweaves the search for idealism into his thought.
I am a devotee of the cosmologist and process philosopher Alfred North Whitehead and his student-disciple Charles David Hartshorne. The complete dialogues of Plato epitomize the academic subject of Philosophy as not being obscurely pedantic academia promulgated by a bombastic "Professor Pomposity" but readily accessible and a relevant topic to most human beings. The definition of Philosophy is that it is "the critical evaluation of all of the factors of experience" seeking ideality while entrenched in reality. "Philosophy is the attempt to express the infinity of the universe within the limitations of language". "Philosophy should become the ultimate intellectual endeavor". Alfred North Whitehead stated that Plato's thought was "an unrivalled display of the human mind in action, with its ferment of vague obviousness, of hypothetical formulation, of renewed insight, of discovery of relevant detail, of partial understanding, of final conclusion with its disclosure of deeper problems as yet unsolved" and took into account every unexpected novelty, every unanticipated change of direction of the cosmos and that "Plato tried so very hard never to mean anything exactly" always assuming truth may at its very best be only 99.9 (with the decimal nine proceeding ad infinitum) percent accurate. Plato's all-encompassing dialogues are HISTORY'S GREATEST CONVERSATION that span the equilibrium of the most valuable tallest of "tall talk" and the most significant smallest of "small talk". There has been no greater literary writer throughout the history of the world than Plato.
The ancient Greeks had a saying about Plato's thought: "Everywhere I go in my mind I meet Plato coming back". This is no surprise since Plato discussed a staggering number of topics amidst incredibly dazzling language. I concur with Alfred North Whitehead's assessment that "Plato was the unparalleled genius of the greatest mind ever developed by western civilization". Plato was the student of Socrates: "He was the Word, the Brain... he was that Socratesian Superman... strange being from a mighty mental mount who came to earth with intellectual powers far beyond those of mere mortal men. That Socratesian Superman who could bend the word with his bare conversation and stretch the ideal with mighty rivers of thought by persuading people to think that they ought".
Plato's student was Aristotle who created contemporary science, logic and political science. There have been no greater thinkers throughout the history of the world than Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. The ancient Greeks also produced several of the greatest playwrights of all time: Aristophanes, Sophocles, Euripides and Aeschylus. The ancient Greeks begat the physician Hippocrates, the historian Thucydides, the orator Pericles and the poet Homer.The ancient Greeks created the Olympics and western civilization.
The psychoanalytical concept of the UNCONSCIOUS was spoken of in Plato's dialogues over two thousand years before Sigmund Freud. Freud did not become the first person to discover the unconscious. He explored it and refined our knowledge of it.
The concept that the Earth is a globular shaped object with many continents covering it was proven by contemporary satellites but the same idea was propoundedin one of Plato's dialogues 2,400 years ago when Socrates stated "I say to you that the earth is like one of those multi-patched leathern balls".
Several hundred years ago the English physician William Harvey was highly acclaimed for allegedly being the discoverer of the circulation of blood in the human body. However Plato was there first two thousand years before William Harvey when in his dialogue entitled "Timaeus" an individual mentions the circulation of the human body's blood.
Do you think the concept of time travel was first created by H.G. Wells or Jules Verne or Einsteinian physics? No, for the concept of time travel was mentioned in Plato's dialogue "Timaeus".
Do you think the "Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy" in physics was first discovered by Albert Einstein or one of his European predecessor scientists who have lived in the last several hundred years? No, for the concept that mass and energy are interchangeable is found in Plato's dialogue "Timaeus". Albert Einstein and some of his recent antecedent theorizers primarily reaffirmed this concept with observational data and mathematical formulae.
Do you think the concept of the relativity of motion was first discovered in Einsteinian physics? No, for this concept is explored in Plato's dialogue "Parmenides". The dialogue in "Parmenides" receives my vote for the most dazzlingly unusual conversation ever written or spoken. It is similar to Abbott & Costello's classical comedy routine "Who's on First?" but "Parmenides" is ever more dazzling and far more sophisticated and deadly serious knowledge. The dialogue "Parmenides" also encapsulates the rudimentary ideas of the fields of "Set Theory" and "Logic" and "Topology" along with the conceptualization of hyper-dimensions in the space-time continuum.
The poetical playwright William Shakespeare's famous quotation "To be or not to be" is in fact strangely reminiscent of Plato's dialogue "Parmenides" where the philosophical concept of "Being" and "Not Being" are discussed.
Do you think that the continent of North America was first discovered by Christopher Columbus, the Vikings, Saint Brendan of Ireland, etc.? Think again, for a dialogue of Plato's refers to the area on earth which we now recognize as North America.
Do you think the concept of an infinite universe in astronomy is a contemporary invention? Think again, for individuals in Plato's "The Republic" and also in the dialogue "Timaeus" postulate the infinite universe theory.
Do you think the biblical legend of Noah surviving the Great Deluge only exists in the Holy Bible? Think again, for Plato's dialogue "Timaeus" describes a survivor of a great deluge. This legend has also been repeated in numerous other countries' tales. The great Christian apologetical and expository commentary writers throughout history borrowed ideas, imagery, etc. from the ancient Greeks. The famous saying attributed to Jesus Christ "Don't cast your pearls before swine" was uttered in the ancient Greek playwright Aristophanes's play "Lysistrata" four hundred years pre-dating Christ's advent.
Do you think the concept of a broad liberal education was first formulated during Leonardo da Vinci's "Renaissance" era or during the twentieth century? Think again, for Plato outlined the liberal education thesis in his dialogues.
Do you think the concept of Reincarnation was procreated in recent centuries or in ancient Far East religions? Think again, for the concept of Reincarnation is touched upon in Plato's dialogue "Meno" and a few other dialogues.
Do you think the recreational board game of "draughts" or chess or a child's seesaw and a child's toy spinning top were invented within the last several hundred years? Think again, for "draughts" or chess and a seesaw are mentioned in Plato's "Laws" anda child's toy spinning top is mentioned in Plato's "The Republic".
Do you think the concept of a "model city" or "model utopianary community" was first devised by the city of Columbia, Maryland or B.F. Skinner's "Walden Two"? Think again, for Plato developed this concept
in his book "The Republic" and also in his dialogue "Laws".
Do you think the witty sayings "Handsome is as handsome does" and "Higgledy Piggledy" were coined by literary writers in the last several hundred years? Think again, for Plato incorporated these phrases in his writings.
From the above you can see that in a sense there is truly "nothing new under the sun" for Plato in his own way arrived there first!

"Discovering things that might also be remembered". Good Book
Plato and Socrates Dialogues stand on their own andin a short review attempt to say that they are "good or not worth it" seems a little shallow.

The chapter Gorgias it reaches out and offers some direction. It says "This is the truth of the matter, as you will acknowledge if you abandon philosophy and move on to more important things is perhaps that philosophy is no doubt a delightful thing, Socrates, as long as one is exposed to it in moderation at the appropriate time in life. But if one spends more time with it than he should, it's his undoing.

So maybe it is just a delightful book if you like Plato and Socrates. It is nice to have this all in one book. I recommend it.

Reading all of the dialogues develops thoughts on specific themes best. It helps to have them in this format. I especially like the to follow the question of whether knowledge is discovered or remembered, whether justice is absolute or relative, whether virtue can be taught, and of course a great deal more in these chapters.

It brings together enough to find out what Plato's epistemology is and how his ethics relates to his metaphysical theory. Lots more.

I found the chapter overviews useful. It pointed the way that the chapters would take and suggested some core issues but didn't pretend to have been answers than the chapters themselves did.

A book like this is a better way to own and read "The Collected Dialogues"

This is the wrong collection to buy.
You could do worse than to buy this collection -- after all, there are translations of the complete works of Plato into English that date to the 18th century.But you could sure do a whole lot better.

By and large -- and with the exception, perhaps, of what is now the standard translation of Laws -- modern translations of Plato are more evenhanded, better researched, and more frank than old ones.And this edition, unfortunately, has some very old ones indeed, like those of Jowett.Moreover, it includes -- according to no particular logic -- a few works many consider spurious, while omitting others whose status is in debate, and it places the dialogues in an order that is not easy to justify.

The edition to buy, if you want a complete Plato without the benefit of the Greek text (if you want the Greek, buy the Loeb, and know that the facing-pages English translations aren't much worse than the ones offered here!), is the one edited by Cooper and published by Hackett.This one will suffice -- but that one is excellent.Few instructors will insist that you buy some edition in particular, and fewer still will insist that you buy this edition -- so don't, buy that one.

it's better than...
As if after reading Plotinus, Augustine and all those Arabian philosophers with those names one can never recall, we needed another commentary on the works of Plato. Cela va de soi (it goes without saying), Plato has been remembered for a reason. Although, there are some philosophers who would consider Plato a mistake (Quine for example, if I remember rightly, refused to teach a class on Plato), I think it would be absurd not to consider Plato at all. There are some dialogues in this book (such as the Timaeus) that will make you yawn, others, like Gorgias, the Symposium and the Laws will make you wide-awake in wonder. But most importantly, these dialogues will introduce you to Socrates. Although, there is no way to ascertain whether it was Plato or Socrates speaking in these dialogues, most assume that in The Apology, The Crito and a few of Plato's other early dialouges, one gets a glimpse of the real Socrates. Socrates, in Plato's (and also Xenophanes) dialouges is a good man, one who will inspire you. He'll teach you the advantages of being open-minded, of realizing human ignorance, and above all, self-knowledge ('know thyself', 'the unexamined life is a life not worth living'). Which, in my opinion, makes Plato worth reading. I would encourage you to read these dialogues and take what you can, and then go on to Aristotle.

Also recommended: Toilet: The Novel, by Michael Szymczyk. The Oxford Companion to Philosophy. The Complete Works of Aristotle. Early Greek Philosophy by Jonathan Barnes. Lives of Eminent Philosophers by Diogenes Laertius.

... Read more

Product Description

If you're facing a dilemma -- whether it's handling a relationship, living ethically, dealing with a career change, or finding meaning in life -- the world's most important thinkers from centuries past will help guide you toward a solution compatible with your individual beliefs. From Kirkegaard's thoughts on coping with death to the I Ching's guidelines on adapting to change, Plato, Not Prozac! makes philosophy accessible and shows you how to use it to solve your everyday problems.

Gone is the need for expensive therapists, medication, and lengthy analysis. Clearly organized by common problems to help you tailor Dr. Lou Marinoff's advice to your own needs, this is an intelligent, effective, and persuasive prescription for self-healing therapy that is giving psychotherapy a run for its money.

Customer Reviews (33)

Another useful one
Again, the author simplify things in a way that one can use it in solving daily common issues.

Easy read
Good book. Easy read with thoughtful insight. Maybe to simplistic at times. Had to read alot to get to the "meat" of the book but will probably continue to refer back to it at times.

Philosophy as a Practical Problem Solving Tool
Before the onset of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy, people with problems tended to use two approaches: what to us may be the bizarre, like witch doctors for example, or, philosophy.In the 1990's, philosophers began to reclaim their former territory by providing philosophical counseling, or the use of philisophy to help clients solve problems of everyday living.Where therapy and analysis fall short, claims Lou Marinoff, philosophy can come in and save the day.He provides a general overview of the major philosophers and their beliefs and teachings, from Socrates to Buddha to Descartes, Leibniz, etc, and then provides case studies of how philosophical counselors helped various clients address a variety of life's problems, from relationship, to job, to broader moral issues.Marinoff makes a convincing case, via his PEACE approach - Probelm Identification, Emotions, Analysis, Contemplation and Equilibrium - that philosophy can indeed help people address problems.

Although I was originally disconcerted by the cafeteria approach to selecting philosophies and applying them to specific problems (not only fit the problem but the particular individual personality), I realized that in actuality this is how we problem solve anyway, to a great extent.That is, someone from a Juedo-Christian tradition sometimes veers off their orthodox path by applying a philosophical principle from another tradition - Buddhism or Stoicism, for example - to address a problem.This, of course, except with certain exceptions, is not a refutation of that person's value system or belief, but more a reflection that no such systems can function in each and every life circumstance.

This book serves as an introduction to the major schools of philosophy and provides a starter kit for using philosophy to solve everyday issues.However, for full results, I think one would need to delve more deeply into the various philosophers or their teachings, participate in a philosophy discussion group, or hire a philosphical counselor.

Plato Not Prozac!
This book is great. I am reading it the second time. I had so many aha moments. You just need to take your time reading and thinking about what you read.

Refreshing approach - Common sense mixed with Wisdom
How can one ignore the wisdom that was given to us by so many philosophers!This book was an excellent "review" of the philosophies I studied decades ago but never thought to incorporate into present day living.At the time they seemed so lofty and inappropriate, but I was also young then.There is tremendous value in them - all of them - choose your own - WONDERFUL book you'll read more than once! ... Read more

Product Description
The Last Days of Socrates, written by legendary author Plato, is widely considered to be one of the greatest classic texts of all time. This great classic will surely attract a whole new generation of readers. For many, The Last Days of Socrates is required reading for various courses and curriculums. And for others who simply enjoy reading timeless pieces of classic literature, this gem by Plato is highly recommended. Published by Classic Books International and beautifully produced, The Last Days of Socrates would make an ideal gift and it should be a part of everyone's personal library. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (12)

Trial of Socrates
Although book was labeled as used, it was not mentioned that the front cover was pretty much destroyed. Other than that the book is fine. However, shipping took quite a while.

Free soup for Socrates!
The life and legacy of Socrates can be interpreted in many different ways, and have been so interpreted. While that is frustrating, it could be argued that it's also inevitable. The words and deeds of great men have different effects on different people. Most scholars base their accounts of Socrates on Plato's dialogues, especially the four dialogues included in this volume: "Euthyphro", "Apology", "Crito" and "Phaedo". They deal with Socrates' trial, execution and death. And no, they don't answer the eternal questions. Rather, they raise more questions than they answer. But then, that's the point!

What makes Socrates so important? The reason, of course, is his philosophy. The whole point of philosophy is to reject tradition and revelation as automatic sources of knowledge, to be taken simply on faith. Instead, human reason is paramount. True, philosophy doesn't *necessarily* reject tradition and revelation, but it does say that such sources of knowledge should be scrutinized by reason. In this sense, philosophy is subversive and radical. At least in a society gone terribly wrong... I mean, who would need philosophy if society had been perfect?

Socrates wasn't the first philosopher, nor even necessarily the "best" one. The reason why his name has been associated with the philosophical endeavour is, of course, the story of his life and above all his death. Socrates became the first known martyr of philosophy, placing his conscience and convictions above politic. Socrates showed how dangerous philosophy can be, by questioning both the oligarchic regime of the Thirty Tyrants in Athens, and the later democracy. He was the perennial dissident, the man who questioned everyone and everything. Ironically, it was the democrats who had him railroaded and executed. A warning for the future?

I don't think Socrates was necessarily a "radical" in the modern sense of that term. He seems to have mingled in high society, and some of his friends and disciples had connections with the oligarchic regime. Neither his disciple Plato nor Plato's pupil Aristotle were democrats, not even by Greek standards. Socrates didn't seem to believe that society could be changed, and therefore tended to avoid politics, except when he was duty bound as a citizen to perform political tasks (he also fought as a soldier). In some ways, Socrates actually resembled a guru. His teachings were oral, he had a circle of admirers and disciples, and he may have imparted somewhat different teachings to each of them. There are also hints at a fundamentally religious worldview, as when Socrates says that a little god or daemon were giving him advice, when he talks of reincarnation and Heaven in "Phaedo", or when he takes seriously the oracular statements of the priestess at Delphi.

Yet, by his bold questioning of established politics, ethics and religion, Socrates nevertheless showed the radical potential of philosophy and rational discourse. On a more somber note, the trial and execution of Socrates also shows that some people, even in a democracy, simply can't stand the truth.

Free soup for Socrates? Still today, many people, rulers and commoners alike, would consider that proposal to be very provocative indeed.

Yawn
I am probably alone in thinking that Socrates was a pompous windbag and that the citizens of Athens deserve a small award for putting and end to his tedious speeches. This book is pure propaganda suggesting that Socrates was a saintly figure martyred by the evil mob. They had concocted ridiculous charges of corrupting the youth of Athens and then had him convicted in a kangaroo court.

The truth is of course more complex. Athens had been a democracy. Socrates and Plato were enemies of the democracy believing in rule by the rich. After the defeat of Athens by Sparta the democratic government was replaced by an oligarchy who used repression to maintain control. It was this government that was supported by Plato and Socrates. Both were in reality traitors to their country in much the same way that Pinochet was a traitor to Chile. After the corrupt rule of Plato's friends was overthrown democracy was re-instituted and Socrates was put on trial for his role in forming the views of those who destroyed the democratic system.

Plato spent his life writing crude anti-democratic propaganda such as this book. His philosophical system of government was that of a totalitarian society run by un-elected guardians. Popper the famous 20th Century Philosopher saw him as one of the forebears of the closed society along with Marx and Lennin.

If this book is to be believed and there is no particular reason to see it as accurate or truthful then Socrates bought his own fate upon himself. He had the chance of exile and he also had the chance to suggest an alternative punishment.

Despite his role as a traitor surely Socrates deserved death because of his life spent as a tedious bore. One cannot read any of the dialogues featuring his alleged sayings without seeing contrivance and he mis-recording of his opponents. At the conclusion of this book one can put it aside and feel a certain sense of satisfaction that the people of Athens did the right thing.

Philosopher at bay
In Athens, during the fifth century B.C., the Sophists were wise men.They were not philosophers, or scientists, they were itinerant teachers.Socrates was a moralist and a religious man.Plato was forty years younger than Socrates.THE APOLOGY and the CRITO are founded on fact, shaped by Plato's artistry, (he was a poet, also).

Socrates was indicted for impiety.A public action was brought against him as a menace to society.Orators and poets disliked Socrates's influence on the young.He asserted in THE APOLOGY that the true champion of justice must confine himself to private life.Socrates received the death penalty.He did not think he should stoop to servility because he was in danger.

Death is either annihilation or migration of the soul.Crito visited Socrates in prison.Crito urged him to escape.He claimed that Socrates was throwing away his life when he might save it.Socrates argued with Crito that he had no problem with the laws and, thus, he had a duty to be law-biding.Aiding Socrates's escape would be a breach of faith.

PHAEDO is the last conversation.Socrates believed a man should be cheerful in the face of death.A love of wisdom, not the body, makes a person cheerful.Soul resembles the divine, body resembles what is mortal.No soul which has not practiced philosophy may attain the divine nature.Pythagoreans have a theory of the soul.The soul is imperishable.Friends were admonished by Socrates to just be themselves.The philosopher faced death handily.

Amazing and wonderful, the three titles are a compelling work.

How is one to rate...
...a 2400 year old work of philosophy?The question, itself, is not without philosophic interest.

Rather than presume to judge Plato, or Socrates, or Plato-as-Socrates, I will simply add my own voice to the chorus of general opinion and say: TLDoS is as resonant and, in its way, relevant, today as it was so many aeons ago.Though hardly a work of unassailable logic it is, nonetheless, a deeply thoughtful, imaginative, and passionately argued one.As I made my way through it, I had to remind myself, from time to time, that what I had before me was a work of ancient literature.Tredennick and Tarrant are to be commended for their eminently readable translation.As I am not a classicist, I cannot speak to the quality of the translation, but if the quality of the endnotes serves as any indication, I would venture to guess that the translation is first-rate.

A very complex Socrates -- as remembered, as imagined, and perhaps also as invented -- emerges from the four dialogues in TSDoS.That this same Socrates still has power to reach across the ages to confound, inspire, frustrate, entertain, and teach is as sure a testament to his legacy, and to the legacy of classical Greek philosophy, as any.

Read and learn. ... Read more

Product Description
The edition includes a select bibliography, a synopsis of each book, a glossary of terms, a glossary and index of names, and a general index. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (10)

good book, though sometimes confusing
I can honestly say that the language in here is hard. It may be just me, though. Either way, some good concepts in here about universal forms and the soul being from different metals...good book. Not leisure reading, but sure is good for if you need something to STUDY...boy will you need to study..

4/5

Great for newbies to Plato
I have bee intimidated to launch onto the world of the Republic - however I bought this book with the hope that I could read AND understand the book that is probably the most referenced piece in political science, philosophy, etc. I was delighted to read this book for two major reasons - 1. The translation is in easy to comprehend modern English 2. Prior to each section the author prospectively reviews and calls attention to the pertinent ideas. This is a wonderful book for new-to-the-platonic-world and maybe even for old hats.

Interesting
This book was interesting. I like learning more about the ancient greek philosophies and Socrates dialogue was interesting.

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

Interesting
A very interesting read. Plato gives us goon insights into how we should live our lives and interact with others. ... Read more

Product Description
In his celebrated masterpiece, Symposium, Plato imagines a high-society dinner-party in Athens in 416 BC. The guests--including the comic poet Aristophanes and Plato's mentor Socrates--each deliver a short speech in praise of love. The sequence of dazzling speeches culminates in Socrates' famous account of the views of Diotima, a prophetess who taught him that love is our means of trying to attain goodness, and a brilliant sketch of Socrates himself by a drunken Alcibiades, the most popular and notorious Athenian of the time. Engaging the reader on every page, this new translation conveys the power, humor, and pathos of Plato's creation and is complemented by full explanatory notes and an illuminating introduction. ... Read more

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Plato, the great philosopher of Athens, was born in 427 BCE. In early manhood an admirer of Socrates, he later founded the famous school of philosophy in the grove Academus. Much else recorded of his life is uncertain; that he left Athens for a time after Socrates' execution is probable; that later he went to Cyrene, Egypt, and Sicily is possible; that he was wealthy is likely; that he was critical of 'advanced' democracy is obvious. He lived to be 80 years old. Linguistic tests including those of computer science still try to establish the order of his extant philosophical dialogues, written in splendid prose and revealing Socrates' mind fused with Plato's thought.

In Laches, Charmides, and Lysis, Socrates and others discuss separate ethical conceptions. Protagoras, Ion, and Meno discuss whether righteousness can be taught. In Gorgias, Socrates is estranged from his city's thought, and his fate is impending. The Apology (not a dialogue), Crito, Euthyphro, and the unforgettable Phaedo relate the trial and death of Socrates and propound the immortality of the soul. In the famous Symposium and Phaedrus, written when Socrates was still alive, we find the origin and meaning of love. Cratylus discusses the nature of language. The great masterpiece in ten books, the Republic, concerns righteousness (and involves education, equality of the sexes, the structure of society, and abolition of slavery). Of the six so-called dialectical dialogues Euthydemus deals with philosophy; metaphysical Parmenides is about general concepts and absolute being; Theaetetus reasons about the theory of knowledge. Of its sequels, Sophist deals with not-being; Politicus with good and bad statesmanship and governments; Philebus with what is good. The Timaeus seeks the origin of the visible universe out of abstract geometrical elements. The unfinished Critias treats of lost Atlantis. Unfinished also is Plato's last work of the twelve books of Laws (Socrates is absent from it), a critical discussion of principles of law which Plato thought the Greeks might accept.

The Loeb Classical Library edition of Plato is in twelve volumes.

Customer Reviews (3)

One of the Greatest Gems of Human Wisdom
This should be essential reading as it is one of the greatest works of human history.Subjects include ethics and righteousness, but my favorite read is found in Critias with Solon's description of Atlantis (possibly describing the region between the southern tip of UK and the French coast, a shallow area now covered in deep mud after the deluge swept across the Atlantic from the melt of the last ice age and the bursting of Hudson Bay?).

There is a lot of Plato packed into this volume.Perhaps the most important and overlooked section is found in Timaeus, where Plato describes nothing short of The Creation of The Universe.Here we find the first introduction to Atlantis, but more important, we find a fascinating dialog on mathematics by Timaeus who was a student of the Pythagorean school.Naturally, sections from this vol are conveniently missing, just like many of the other great works from the classical period that survived the Dark Ages.

One has to wonder just how common the mathematical knowledge was back in the day, as described by Plato?Like Pythagorean theorem, it most likely came from Egypt where Plato is known to have spent some time. In the Timaeus we find nothing less than the mathematical construct of the Universe, from nothingness to what we are today; from "chaos to cosmos".This is high sacred geometry at its finest, and after deep meditation we could reasonably wonder if Plato understood molecular construct 2,400 years ago?

I generally have a bias to preferring the Loeb editions, though while not essential, for anyone working with the Platonic mathematics I think it is helpful to have a copy of the Penguin edition as it offers some better diagrams that I found helpful on the start of this journey.If you are buying the book to gain greater awareness of the mathematics (the only reason this should be studied imho), I suggest acquiring the works of Proclus, but unless you can read modern Greek and get the full translation, be prepared for the garbage academia versions currently available in English with their poor commentary and ridiculous prices.

Obscure but interesting dialogues
Like most volumes in the Loeb series, the emphasis is not on word-for-word precision in the translation, but on acheiving greater readability in broader terms. Since the original text in ancient Greek is provided on the facing page, the editors assume that anyone with a little knowledge of Greek can supplement the looseness of the translation by referring to the original. And in general, the compromises made in this way are good ones throughout the series. This particular volume brings together some of the more obscure (perhaps even spurious) dialogues in the Platonic corpus, but these are still worth reading. The Charmides, the two Alcibiades dialogues and the Theages certainly repay caareful study. Lamb's translation is faithful enough to give a good sense of the text, and the Greek is included for anyone who wants to get even closer to Plato's thinking.

Useful for the specialist and the student
Like most volumes in the Loeb series, the emphasis is not on word-for-word precision in the translation, but on acheiving greater readability in broader terms. Since the original text in ancient Greek is provided on the facing page, the editors assume that anyone with a little knowledge of Greek can supplement the looseness of the translation by referring to the original. And in general, the compromises made in this way are good ones throughout the series. Bury's translation is one of the better ones in the series, achieving readability without sacrificing fidelity. There are also some fine notes to help with some of the more obscure mathematical arguments. It is also very useful to have the Timaeus and the Critias presented together. The inclusion of the Epistles along with the Cleitophon and Menexenus may seem a little miscellaneous, but these are fine translations of interesting texts. ... Read more

Product Description
Plato stands as the fount of our philosophical tradition, being the first Western thinker to produce a body of writing that touches upon a wide range of topics still discussed by philosophers today.In a sense he invented philosophy as a distinct subject, for although many of these topics were discussed by his intellectual predecessors and contemporaries, he was the first to bring them together by giving them a unitary treatment. This volume contains fourteen new essays discussing Plato's views about knowledge, reality, mathematics, politics, ethics, love, poetry, and religion. There are also analyses of the intellectual and social background of his thought, the development of his philosophy throughout his career, the range of alternative approaches to his work, and the stylometry of his writing. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (6)

Very Good
This is a very good overview of Plato's philosophy. I would recommend this volume for those that want to learn of his philosophy without reading that acual works.

(no title)
I cannot recommend this volume highly enough. It's a collection of essays, all (bar one) especially written for this volume, each of them authored by a leading scholar on the respective dialogue or topic. Especially the pieces by Frede and Fine constitute path-breaking, durable contributions to Plato scholarship; each of them would merit the purchase by itself. Between them, Frede and Fine also introduce the reader to two rather different approaches to interpreting Plato, and at once present these approaches at their very best.

Some essays are naturally harder than others, ranging from the instantly accessible to the rather technical. This is as it should be: a reader's companion to Plato's dialogues which themselves vary from the easy to the 'forbidding'. And a book that won't become redundant as your own competence with the dialogues grows (who ever said it won't?).

To conclude: these pieces range from the good to the outstanding, none of them is harder than it should be, and they display considerable diversity in methodology.

PS People interested in the 'non-doctrinal' approach to reading Plato may profitably consult Ferrari's piece at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2000/2000-11-10.html, and the "Introduction" (pt.III-IV) in John Cooper, "Plato: Complete Works" (Hackett 1997).

Your time and money are better spent elsewhere
Plato is perhaps the most approachable of the major philosophers. His work is largely presented in short dialogues. Their brevity allow them to be read in a single sitting, and their characterizations, humor, and stories engage even the reader new to philosophy.

Given this, it may surprise those unfamiliar with Plato to learn that the interpretation of him has always been the subject of hot dispute - perhaps only Nietzsche among philosophers has inspired more controversy.

Why is this? Why is Plato so easy to read and yet so difficult?

Five problems are worth calling out:

(1) Dramatic presentation: All of Plato's published works are presented as dialogues between characters - Plato himself is never a character. Thus, any interpretation must have some mapping (implicit or explicit) between the characters' views and Plato's views, as well as how the dramatic structure (setting, characters, story) as a whole presents Plato's views.

(2) Irony: The main speaker in most of Plato's dialogues is Socrates, a character who often speaks ironically. Other characters can be read as sometimes being ironical as well (such as The Athenian in the dialogue "Laws"). Any interpretation must determine when a character is speaking ironically and when seriously.

(3) Stories/Myths: Characters in Plato's dialogues often tell stories whose subject matter is mythological - they concern Gods and Goddesses, the afterlife,and other subject matter beyond ordinary human experience. Any interpretation that deals with them must determine how they are to be read.

(4) The Platonic Lie: In "The Republic", Plato endorses (or seems to endorse) lying as a means of instilling beneficial beliefs in audiences that are unable to acquire philosophical knowledge. A beneficial belief is one that is not true in its substance, but which, if believed, will tend to the same end as would the corresponding knowledge. If we accept that this is Plato's view, then interpretations must consider whether views expressed in the dialogues are themselves Platonic Lies, and not real representations of Plato's thought.

(5) Historical Background: Plato lived in a time and place different from our own, whose language, customs, intellectual background, and attitudes are not ours. This is a much bigger problem than just unfamiliar names - it is the unconscious attitudes we absorb from our culture (and he from his) of which we are not necessarily even consciously aware. Different interpreters do not read these influences the same way (there is no book we can all go to called "How We Thought About Things", authored by "The Ancient Greeks").

With regard to these issues, the dominant view in "A Cambridge Companion to Plato" is something I would call Platonic Fundamentalism: "Socrates says what Plato means, and he means what he says" (this is after the Christian Fundamentalist credo: "The Bible says what it means and it means what it says").

A difficulty with this view is that it leaves Plato contradicting himself an awful lot. The general solution presented here is the evolving-Plato theory - that the dialogues were written over a long period of time and that the contradictions represent real changes in Plato's views. The collection thus abounds in references to Plato's "early dialogues" or "middle dialogues" or "late dialogues".

Now, there are certainly Plato scholars, past and present, who do not accept this particular interpretive framework, but their views, if raised at all,are raised only so that they may be dismissed (sometimes in the same sentence). Those looking for substantial engagement on the problems of Platonic interpretation must look elsewhere.

So, given that the book does not aim to present the scholarly debate on interpreting Plato, it is fair to ask: what does it aim to do? This is an excellent question, but I could not find the answer to it in the book itself.

If it were for the beginning reader, I would think it would focus on the order of reading, and on prepping the reader with background info for each dialogue so as to make reading it more rewarding. But it doesn't do anything like that.

If it were for the intermediate reader, I would think it would focus on illuminating doubtful passages or drawing connecting webs across disparate ones. But it doesn't do that either.

If it were for the advanced reader, I would think it would focus on the debates in the secondary literature, and that it would be used by peers to address peers on controversies. But it doesn't do that either.

So, when it comes to the ultimate question of whether I should recommend the book or not, I just can't think of anyone to whom I would recommend it.

Finally, to take another tack at how worthwhile a book is: the basic challenge any work of secondary literature must face is whether it is more profitable to read it, or to give the primary literature another reading instead.

The only work in the collection that I would say clearly passes that test is Constance Meinwald's essay on "Parmenides" (for those who don't know, "Parmenides" is by far the most formidable work in the Platonic corpus - the first half works to demolish the theory of Forms that we might otherwise hold to be Plato's view, and the second half defies the ability of most readers to make any sense of at all). Even here, however, if you want to read Meinwald's theories on "Parmenides" (and they are worth reading), you would do better to get her book "Plato's Parmenides" than to read the essay excerpted from that book included here.

A Very Good Introduction to Plato
The Cambridge Companion to Plato is an extrememly good primer of Plato's philosophy. The book begins with a complete overview of Plato's philosophy and how it progressed through time. This overview is particularly helpful for those who have never studied Plato before and essential for those who use this book, as I did, as their first exposure to the study of philosophy.

Like all books in the Cambridge series, the Companion to Plato consists of a number of essays written by preminent scholars. These essays explain and evaluate various aspects of Plato's philosophy, from "the defense of justice in Plato's Republic" to "mathematical method and philosophical truth."

Like any philosophy textbook, The Cambridge Companion to Plato can, at times, be dense. I won't recommend it for everbody; a hearty interest in learning philosophy is definately required. However, I've found it to be one of the finest introductions to Plato in his philosophy. It provides a good foundation for actual reading of Plato's texts, which is the next logical step beyond this book. It is also perfect for those who wish to gain a working understanding of Plato's view of the world but, like me, simply do not have the patience to garner it from Plato's own work.

A comprehensive introduction to Plato
This collection of essays written by a host of outstanding scholars of ancient philosophy in this generation may well serve as a comprehensive and dense guideline to the philosophy of Plato and the contemporary viewpointsconcerning the arguments presented by Plato. I am especially impressed bythe excellent introduction written by the editor of this book, RichardKraut. It is so well-organized, sharply presented and teemed with usefulmaterials that I find it to be the best short introduction on Plato I everread. And the structure of the whole book is also well balanced that theessays of which it is composed nearly touch every controverisal problemsconcerning Plato's philosophy and that those problems are all more or lesstreated in a appreciable way. ... Read more

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The revised edition of this popular textbook features revised vocabulary and grammatical notes that now appear on the same page as the text, sentence diagrams, principal parts of verbs listed both by Stephanus page and alphabetically, word frequency list for words occurring more than twice, and complete vocabulary.

Also available:

Meleager: The Poems - ISBN 0865162549
Asclepiades of Samos and Leonidas of Tarentum: The Poems - ISBN 0865164568

For over 30 years Bolchazy-Carducci Publishers has produced the highest quality Latin and ancient Greek books. From Dr. Seuss books in Latin to Plato's Apology, Bolchazy-Carducci's titles help readers learn about ancient Rome and Greece; the Latin and ancient Greek languages are alive and well with titles like Cicero's De Amicitia and Kaegi's Greek Grammar. We also feature a line of contemporary eastern European and WWII books.

Some of the areas we publish in include:

Selections From The Aeneid
Latin Grammar & Pronunciation
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Texts Supporting Wheelock's Latin
Classical author workbooks: Vergil, Ovid, Horace, Catullus, Cicero
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Greek Mythology
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Customer Reviews (4)

A remarkable story of the death of a remarkable man
The philosopher Plato, born in 427 BCE narrates the trial and death of his seventy year old teacher Socrates in 399 BCE in Athens, Greece in four of his dialogues. Socrates was accused of impiety and of corrupting the youth. The general consensus among today's historians and scholars is that Socrates was innocent of the charges against him. However, the citizens of Athens felt differently during his time. Socrates was found guilty, was imprisoned, was able to meet with and talk with his friends before his death, and died by drinking hemlock given to him by his executioner.

Plato presents Socrates' defense of himself, which is quite persuasive. We will focus on one item: Socrates' reactions to his impending death. It is one of several early discussions about death.

The Apology reports Socrates thought about life after death and Phaedo quotes his last words. Both show his courage and fine character.

In The Apology, Socrates' friends are surprised that he is taking his impending death so calmly. One friend asks him what he thinks happens to people after their death. Socrates admits that he does not know, but sees two possibilities: either there is no afterworld or there is one. If there is no afterworld, there is nothing to worry about. Death will be like a dreamless sleep. Even the riches people on earth, who have all kinds of possessions and enjoy all kinds of activities and pleasures, delight in an undisturbed sleep. If, on the other hand, there is an afterlife, there is again no concern. The dead will enjoy meeting acquaintances and heroes of old; it will be a truly enjoyable and learning experience. Understanding this, he explained, he had no need to fear death; on the contrary, either way, there will be nothing bad after death.

Phaedo shows that Socrates did not change his mood or mind. He drinks the Hemlock and dies slowly, very calm, very accepting. He feels that he has lived a good life and is satisfied. As Socrates is about to die, this man who had been charged with corrupting the youth of Athens and of being impious, turns to his friend Crito and says, "Crito, we owe a cock to Aesculapius. Pay it and do not neglect it." These were his last words.

Phaedo end with a lamenting, but congratulatory comment by the person narrating the story, "Such was the end, Echecrates, of our friend, who was, as we may say, of all those of his time whom we have known, the best and wisest and most righteous man."

Great translation, a must read as it is really short
Usual amazing Plato-ness. The preface to this has a detailed discussion of how Plato makes Socrates seem a bit "Superior". I agree as this is a dialectic challenge, i.e. creating a speech of one's own defense that doesn't result in a person being "defensive" or at the very least outraged at false accusations.I found his discussion on politics and justice or righteousness to be fascinatingly timeless.

standard school text of the Apology
This textbook has much to recommend it.I used it this year in an advanced high school Greek course and know of no textbook either in or out of print that is more helpful.As a practical matter, it supersedes all earlier editions, most of which fail to meets the needs of current students.

The text contains a complete vocabulary.Each page of Greek text is accompanied by extensive notes on the facing page (along with translations of words that appear infrequently).While the Apology is often labeled an "intermediate" Greek text, it features many challenging constructions, including (to cite only a few) prolepsis, anacoluthon, attraction, and frequent ellipses.Intermediate Greek students cannot possibly unravel these syntactical knots without useful explanatory notes.Helm's comments are crisp and on point.Nor does he co-opt the student's task of translating.

Also included are references to more detailed treatments of grammatical points found in Herbert Weir Smyth's monumental "Greek Grammar."There are useful appendices, one with diagrams of several long and complicated sentences, another containing principal parts of key verbs found in the work.Overall, the notes are directed to the student who is coming to the text of the Apology for the first time.

My only quibble with this textbook is the Greek font, which I do not find especially appealing.I much prefer the Porson font found in the Bryn Mawr commentary of the same work.

As for the Apology itself, it is one of the great masterworks of Greek literature.To read it in Greek is an education in itself.An ancient commentator insightfully pointed out that the work is really four things: 1)a defense speech proper; 2) a counter-indictment of the Athenian people; 3) a portrait of Socrates the man; and 4) a depiction of the ideal philosopher.It truly is each of these things, and the brilliance of Plato's achievement lies in his simultaneous handling of these different aims.

The speech can be approached from a range of perspectives.In the very least it is a fascinating study in Athenian legal procedure (Socrates was tried by a jury of 500 Athenian citizens), where judges and lawyers played no role in the trial and jurors were largely free to interpret the charge however they wished.The speech also must be situated in its historical context, namely, the end of the Peloponnesian War, the rule of the Thirty Tyrants, and the restoration of the Athenian democracy.The way in which the traditional morality of Athens was challenged by the sophists must also be considered closely for a full understanding of the speech.

Some have argued that Socrates did a poor job of defending himself. Certainly there are passages where, rather then defending himself, he condemns the Athenians for failing to tend to their own souls and warns them in no uncertain terms that they will only be the worse for executing him.In the end, the speech is extraordinarily moving in its depiction of Socrates' unflinching moral courage and absolute devotion to his philosophical mission.

An Excellent Manual for Reading Plato's Original Text
This book was wonderfully organized for those who would like to read ancient Greek texts. We can read Plato's Apology without looking up the Greek dictionary. In the appendices, some Sentence Diagrams,table of thetense of the verbs of the Principal Parts, Word Frequency List, and theVocabulary List were provided. ... Read more

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This comprehensive, yet compact, introduction examines Plato's understanding of law, justice, virtue, and the connection between politics and philosophy.

Focusing on three of Plato's dialogues -- The Laws, The Republic, and The Statesman -- Mark Blitz lays out the philosopher's principal interests in government and the strength and limit of the law, the connection between law and piety, the importance of founding, and the status and limits of political knowledge. He examines all of Plato's discussions of politics and virtues, comments on specific dialogues, and discusses the philosopher's explorations of beauty, pleasure, good, and the relations between politics and reason. Throughout, Blitz reinforces Plato's emphasis on clear and rigorous reasoning in ethics and political life and explains in straightforward language the valuable lessons one can draw from examining Plato's writings.

The only introduction to Plato that both gathers his separate discussions of politically relevant topics and pays close attention to the context and structure of his dialogues, this volume directly contrasts the modern view of politics with that of the ancient master. It is an excellent companion to Plato's Dialogues.

Customer Reviews (3)

All of Allen's translations ROCK
The five volumes that Allen has produced so far are much more than just another set of translations of Plato. They provide a coherent and accessible stand-alone course of study in Platonic philosophy. One can start right from the Preface of the fist volume and read them all straight through to the very end of Allen's masterful edition of the Republic. In fact - that is exactly what one should do.

Allen develops a number of crucial ideas in his commentaries/introductions. One of his most brilliant strokes is his demonstration of how the "Forms" are already strongly implied in the early "Socratic" dialogs. Those dialogs assume that such questions as "what is virtue?" are meaningful - and the way in which Plato assumes this already assumes that there is such a thing as Virtue, ie, the "Form" of virtue.

The order in which the dialogs are arranged is far from conventional - and yet there is a master plan behind it all. If one takes the time to read (and probably re-read) the Introductions/Commentaries while reading the dialogs in the given order, the maximum benefit will be gained from Allen's depth of knowledge and insight.

If you are starting from scratch I would highly recommend also reading Pierre Hadot's "What Is Ancient Philosophy?" in parallel with this first volume. Julia Annas' "Introduction" to the Republic would also be good to have once you get to that volume (which is the fifth and last one so far - as of August 2007).

One hopes that Allen is at work right now on a translation of the Phaedo!!!!

Very clear, well organized and engaging.
This book is excellent for anyone interested in the study of Platonic philosophy, both in the original dialogue form and in commentary which elucidates the primary text. Allen assembles six dialogues in this volume, which all deal with several major themes; the necessity of true definition of words if any meaningful dialogue is to be carried on regarding them (such as virtue, piety, justice, etc.), the death of Socrates, and absolute necessity of caring for the excellence of the soul through acting justly and absolutely rejecting injustice. Allen begins each chapter with a clear and very instructive discourse on the dialogue, as well as relating it to others which illustrate the same concepts dealt with in the present one. He always avoids devloving into the effetism of academic terminology, so he is very readable. He expresses the true meaning of the dialogue in language which all can understand. The dialogues are translated in a very understandable contemporary language, yet somehow manage to maintain the linguistic, poetic power of the original. I found that reading the commentary first, then the dialogue, and finally rereading the commentary provided a wonderful way to use this book. I can't wait to read the entire set! Buy and read it!

The best work of Crito
Crito was a great book to read about for philosophy. It was very interesting in various ways. ... Read more

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One of Plato’s most profound and beautiful works, Phaedrus takes the form of a dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus, an amateur rhetorical enthusiast, on the topic of passionate or romantic love.Concerned with establishing principles of rhetoric, it argues that rhetoric is only acceptable as an art when it is firmly based on the truth inspired by love, the common experience of true philosophic activity. It is in this dialogue that Plato employs the famous image of love as the driver of the chariot of souls. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (2)

Writing and Eros
This Platonic dialogue is one of the most intriguing and crisply enjoyable. It is here that Socrates relates his ideas on the complex intermingling of the beautiful and the good, as well as brilliant reflections on speech and writing. "Since it is the function of speech to lead souls by persuasion, he who is to be a rhetorician must know the various forms of soul." A privileging of speech over writing is preeminent in Western thought, perhaps it originates here.Writing is exterior to the soul, to the 'psyche,' thus it is mere mimesis. This is a wonderfully mysterious and complex text. Be sure to consult Fowler's translation in the loeb edition.

Get another translation.
This is one of my favorite Platonic dialogues, an analysis of both rhetoric and love which leads to some compelling discussions. However, the translation offered by Pengin Classics is hideously lacking. I can't put my finger on exactly where it goes wrong, but the translator makes it a pain to get through just one page. Everything seems laborous and technical, including the normally exquisite speeches.

Get another translation instead. Might I suggest the one published by Hackett? Or perhaps Cornell University Press? Both of those translations take care to make the dialogue as lively annd exciting as it rightfully should be. ... Read more

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This collection features Plato's writings on sex and love in the preeminent translations of Stanley Lombardo, Paul Woodruff and Alexander Nehamas, D.S. Hutchinson, and C.D.C. Reeve.

Reeve's Introduction provides a wealth of historical information about Plato and Socrates, and the sexual norms of classical Athens. His introductory essay looks closely at the dialogues themselves and includes the following sections: Socrates and the Art of Love; Socrates and Athenian Paiderastia; Loving Socrates; Love and the Ascent to the Beautiful; The Art and Psychology of Love Explained; and Writing about Love. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (2)

Excellent, Easy Read
These approachable translations make Plato so much easier to understand and follow, and when Socrates takes his interlocutor for a logical roller-coaster, following is essential. The translations might seem elementary compared to other floral translations of Plato, but in my experience, Greek is a rather simple language, and following the word meaning and grammar literally often produces translations such as these in this book. The "fancier" translations are unnecessarily confusing, whereas these translations work just fine.The translator even goes so far as to include footnotes regarding a Greek word that might have different meanings in English, perhaps no meaning in English, and words which might have been added later by scribes who copied Plato's texts. Overall, it is a worthy buy and will allow you to read Plato, nothing more, nothing less.

I hate Plato!!!
Despite my strong dislike for Plato, this translation made his writings easier to read and understand.It is very clear and modern in its language.Indeed, in no other version has any humor come through; and two professors of classical studies have commented on the accuracy of the translation.Perhaps other versions have tried for a more 'high-class' respectable sounding language; regardless, the feel of this makes it seem much more real and accessible.The footnotes are especially helpful giving complete descriptions and explanations of the people, situations, terminology, context, and helping tie together the different sections.Most of Plato's philosophy initially sounds ridiculous and fetishistic, or even to be the inane ramblings of an egocentric, self-important person who over estimates his own intelligence - and may very well be - but in this version the underlying ideas are made obvious and it becomes therefor easy to trace how these writings influenced our cultural philosophy and ideas about sex, the purpose of love, and the nature of human striving for perfection. ... Read more

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Taking the form of a dialogue among Socrates, Gorgias, Polus, and Callicles, the Gorgias debates crucial questions about the nature of government. While the aspiring politician Callicles propounds the view that might is right, and the rhetorician Gorgias argues that oratory and the power to persuade represent "the greatest good," Socrates insists on the duty of politicians to consider the welfare of their citizens—a duty he believed had been dishonored in the Athens of his time. The dialogue offers fascinating insights into how classical Athens was governed and creates a theoretical framework that has been highly influential on subsequent political debate. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

Good read
I had to read this for school anyway but I found a new respect for Socrates. This book was written by Plato sine Socrates could not read or write. It takes place in Ancient Greece, Socrates is talking to politicians about rhetoric and it becomes a deep discussion about morality. To put it in simple terms. Good lessons though. I would say that it is actually a must read.

book
seems to be some type of language from a country in the mediterreanian or something. paper with ink all over it

A good enough translation for any student of Plato.
An easily approachable work is not a common phrase for Plato, but this rendition of the Gorgias presents diction and translation in an accurate and approachable manner, and luckily for the reader includes the necessary Stephanus pages.The only gripe I have is the constant flipping to the rear of the book for the notes of the author.I much prefer chopped pages to a constant back and forth.

A student of philosophy and most classics students will find this a good enough translation, but of course anyone pursuing this into graduate studies will want to look at the original.

Talks About Rhetoric Versus Philosophy
I've been reading some of Plato's diologues to find out more about Plato himself.

I consider these books to be light reading.They have a certain charm and you can relate to the various speakers of which Socrates is the main one for the dialogues I have read so far.

The main point here is comparing rhetoric or the art of verbal persuasion to philosophy.

Socrates' two great loves were beautiful boys and philosophy so you can guess which side Socrates was on.

He considers rhetoric to be a form of deception really which only superficially informs people for the sake of pursuasion for selfish motives.

Philosophy on the other hand is the real truth.

It talks about how if Socrates was ever pulled into court his lack of skills with rhetoric would make him easy prey for his accusers.

Since Socrates was executed perhaps this is what really happened I don't know.

I find these books interesting because Plato and those others believed in the mythological gods.

The explantory notes indicate that the three brothers Zeus, Poseidon, and Pluto divided up this earthly domain.

Zeus took the realm of the sky, Poseidon took the surface of the earth which includes the sea, and Pluto took the underworld.

Plato apparently didn't think too much of cooks.He calls cooking a knack and compares it to medicine which is a skill he says.

Plato gets carried away sometimes with his analogies.

Undoubtedly Plato's thoughts evolved throughout his life.

All of his many writings are I guess a snapshot of his thought processes at a particular time.

After I finish a few more of these dialogues I'll read 'The Laws' which I think was one of Plato's last works.

The next one on my list is 'Symposium'.

Jeff Marzano

A great translation
Nichols' translation of Gorgias is indeed impressive. I have heard and read other translations of Gorgias- but the word choice of those other translation is too unadmirable(like "knack"-a word that is not fitted with Platonic dialogues). Nichols keeps consistent and easily understandable words. He doesn't go about saying "smart" words- unlike others who seem to try and exhaust their vocab. before they finish the work. ... Read more

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The Republic written by legendary philosopher Plato is widely considered to be one of the top Socratic dialogues of all time. This great classic will surely attract a whole new generation of readers. For many, The Republic is required reading for various courses and curriculums. And for others who simply enjoy reading timeless pieces of classic literature, this gem by Plato is highly recommended. Published by Classic Books America and beautifully produced, The Republic, is one of the most influential works of philosophy and political theory ever written. This would make an ideal gift and it should be a part of everyone's personal library. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (6)

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

I love the CD version of this book.
The CD version is $125, but you get all 10 books of the Republic on 10 CDs. Each book has its own CD, each an hour or longer.It's not just 1 reader.The book is a dialog and the audio book version has a number of actors playing the different roles of the dialog.William Siglis plays Socrates and he does a wonderful job.He has a distinctive voice and performs his role very well, inflecting his voice, chuckling, he acts!

I gasped at the price, but I say it is well worth it.You get over 20 hours of stimulating discourse.There is nothing else like it.The reviews for the paperback book are mingled with this review of the CD.

Here's a link to the CD version if you haven't found it yet (it is under "Also Available as: audio CD"

Here's the link:Plato's Republic (complete)

Really great
This version is a really nice one, better than others I've seen.It's easy to navigate because it has the table of contents and the text is actually formatted.

Great read
Makes me wish I had read it when I was younger.Perhaps I wouldn't have liked a required reading in school, but as an older adult I found it interesting.

The classic--what did you expect?
There probably isn't much I can add in a scholarly vein to what people have already said about Plato. So I thought I would make a few personal observations from the standpoint of a somewhat philosophically literate, 21st century man who is reading such an august classic in middle age.

I came to this book with more of a background in modern epistemology and the philosophy of science than in classical philosophy. So political philosophy isn't exactly my strong suit, but nevertheless I found the book interesting reading in a way I hadn't really thought of before.

Actually, I had read portions of this book 20 years ago when I was a young student first studying philosophy, and I have to say, there is something to be said for having a more mature outlook in approaching such a venerable work. At the time I thought political philosophy pretty dull stuff, and besides, I felt there was no real way to answer any of the important political questions that get debated here, despite the easy way Socrates disposes of everybody else's half-baked opinions and theories.

The fact is, if you move ahead 2400 years and read something like Karl Popper's "The Open Society and Its Enemies," an advanced modern work, you can see how much, or how little, political philosophy has progressed in the last 24 centuries.

Well, that may be true, but at least with this book you know where it basically all started. The best way to decide this issue is to read the book and decide for yourself.

Although entitled "The Republic," this society isn't like any republic you've probably ever read about. Plato proposes an ant- like communism where there is no private ownership of property, philosophers are kings, kings are philosophers, people cultivate physical, moral, and ethical qualities, and the idea of the good takes the place of political and social virtues.

Another odd facet is that the bravest citizens are permitted more wives than those less brave in battle. And then there is the infamous proposition that all poets and artists are to be banished since they are harmful purveyors of false illusions.

I find the Socratic method as a way of moving along the dialogue between the participants sort of interesting, and it is certainly an effective device. However, none of these people, even the famous Sophist Thrasymachus, are really Socrates' intellectual equal, so he really doesn't have much competition here.

(Cheap shot from the "Peanut Gallery"--not to digress too much, here, but if Socrates was supposed to be so wise, how come he married such a shrewish woman for a wife, Xantippe? They joked about how funny and incongruous that was even in Socrates's day).

There was one other thing I was wondering about. If ancient Athens disproportionately had so many towering intellects, relative to its small population (about 20,000 people, most of whom were slaves anyway), you'd think they would show up in Plato's dialogues more. But all we seem to get are second-raters who are really no match for the clever Socrates. Of course, since the dialogues we have were written down by Socrates' most famous student, Plato, perhaps the cards were stacked a little in his teacher's favor.

Yet I would say this is still a great book. Classical scholars say there are more perfect, less flawed dialogues than Plato's Republic, but none that are as profound, wide-ranging, and as influential and important for later philosophy. As someone once wrote, in a sense the entire history of western philosophy "consists of nothing but footnotes to Plato." After finally reading it, I can see why there is so much truth to that statement. ... Read more

Product Description

Customer Reviews (7)

Bad shipping
I ordered this book for a class on the 11th with 2 day shipping... and on the 20th it has yet to be shipped. As I ordered this from amazon, and not an independent seller, I expected to get it in the time frame estimated, as the book is in stock. If it is not shipped within the next day, I plan to cancel my order.

Fantastic!
The great Seth Benardete has provided an accurate and intriguing translation of this classic masterpiece. The "Ladder of Love" by Bloom is also included, and is as equally important to a fuller understanding of the symposium as a good translation is.
*Note: the ladder of love is a chapter from Bloom's Love and Friendship, so be aware that if you already have this you are mainly buying Benardete's translation. On that note, it is one of the best translations around.

A timeless discourse on desire
Plato's Symposium is a discourse on the nature and origins of love and eroticism.This is done through a lengthy dialogue at the dinner party at the home of Agathon, where he and his guests, including Socrates (his lover), partake in wine and take turns eulogizing Eros, the god of love and desire.Each does his best to praise the god, while Socrates comments on them afterward through speech and dialogue.In the end, the party is joined by the intoxicated Alcibiades, who speaks of Socrates's honorable traits while also confessing his love and desire for him.

Symposiums in Greek society were a chance for men to recline on couches and drink, converse, debate and party with one another.They were usually held to celebrate a young male entering aristocratic society, and normally these youths would attend as the companion of one of the adults with whom we was involved in a pederastic relationship.The arguments and topics presented in the Symposium can be difficult for the average modern reader to comfortably comprehend, as nearly each speech somehow turns inevitably to the subject of, and ultimate praise of, pederasty.This physical and emotional love between a man and a youth is held in high regard in the Symposium's reasoning, often being seen as more pure and more desirable than one between a man and a woman.The latter is more bent on procreation and physical attraction, while, in their eyes, pederasty deals more with souls and the love of that which is alike.It is these assumptions, which arise in each speech, which can make it difficult for one to agree completely with one of the character's arguments. Nevertheless, it is possible to find persuasive elements in each of their various speeches that can reveal valuable insight into the ways and reasons that human beings love and are beloved.

The young Phaedrus is the first to honor Eros.The value of his view lies in his belief that a man who loves is a man who cares, and thus a man who strives to do good and not bring about shame to him or the ones he loves.Pausinias is next to speak, and he is persuasive in distinguishing the two manifestations of Eros, or two types of love: the love of the physical (Pandemus) and the love of the spiritual (Uranian).He then correctly places the spiritual love higher, for those of the other kind "are in love with their bodies and not their souls" and they can be "in love with the stupidest there can be, for they have an eye only to act [sexually] and are unconcerned with whether it is noble or not" (Plato 10).He decrees that one must love both the body and the soul, for if one loves only the body, "as soon as the bloom of the body fades - which is what he was in love with - `he is off and takes wing'" (Plato 13).

The third to speak is Eryximachus, whose speaks rightly of loves impact upon art and beauty.Aristophanes next gives an amusing, although no less romantic, portrayal of primordial balls of flesh rolling around, and being split into two parts, and searching the rest of its life for its other half to finally complete itself.It illustrates the loneliness one feels when without their lover.Agathon then gives an eloquent speech, the highlight of which is Eros's power to bring humans together in happiness.

Lastly, the wise Socrates speaks.At first he uses what has presently been deemed `Socratic dialogue' by asking Agathon a series of questions in order to bring out inconsistencies in his argument.By doing this, he is able manipulate a conversation to his liking, and convince the person he is conversing with of his own opinion by making it seem as though they arrived at that idea themselves.In this instance, Agathon originally said that Eros was by nature good and beautiful, but when examining the nature of love through Socrates' interrogation, he concludes that Eros is neither good nor beautiful.Socrates furthers his explanation by recounting a dialogue he had with a wise woman named Diotima of Mantineia.The genius of this instance is the realization of procreation being a way for an individual to seek immortality, and the need to create, in general, things such as art or great ideas or laws are driven from this need to be remembered.Human beings not only generate but also nurture to further the guarantee that their mark will be made lasting, whether it is a child or an epic.This could certainly account for the passion in humans for fame and/or reproduction, and gives terrific insight into the ultimate purposes of most human actions.(However, Diotima seems to fall short in one part of her argument when she says that man "will never generate in the ugly" for he desires beauty and good too greatly, yet infamy through death and fear has certainly been a motivating factor in many men's actions through their course to fame and remembrance).

In this publication by The University of Chicago Press the reader is given Seth Benardete's beautiful translation along with the Allan Bloom's insightful "Ladder of Love," which offers an analysis of the ancient text (although some background knowledge of the historical Socrates would ensure getting the most out of this essay).Plato's Symposium proves to be a wonderfully philosophical discourse on desire, although some of its ideas, as identified earlier, are justly outdated.Nevertheless, it provides a glimpse into the inner workings of man's heart and the forces that propel him to go on each day.

Decent
I found many of the ideas about love in the Symposium very interesting and the Ladder of Love that followed was also good to read.

best edition available
This is an elegant and accurate translation (much more readable than Benardete's gnomic renditions of Theaetetus / Sophist / Statesman). Benardete's essay is also a joy (it was previously published, but in a rather obscure German edition). Bloom's commentary is a bit of a slog and very rarely surprising. The reviewer below who remarked that "if you already have Love and Friendship and a copy of the Symposium you might feel gyped [sic]" has missed the mark; the prize here is the translation itself. Now if only Chicago had included Blanckenhagen's "Stage and Actor" as well! ... Read more